Request Thread for DGS Feedback [WAR Edition]

[Deleted]

I loved it when Evan did this. Absolutely loved it. I think that fed members giving one another feedback lead to better characters, better storylines, and a higher quality of writing all around, and that those feds that provide frequent and regular feedback to their members are the ones that do better. That are better. That's why it made me sad when Evan, for whatever reason, decided to stop, and that's why I've decided to pick up where he left off.

Request feedback here, and you shall have it. Please specify whether you're fine with it appearing in this thread or if you'd prefer to receive it in private (via PM), as well as whether there are any aspects or sections of the promo you'd like me to focus on. Note that I will not be using a numerical rubric - I find it weird to think that writing, especially creative writing, can be quantified and assigned a score - but I will force myself to give a letter grade at the end of each piece of feedback, in case any of them lapse into TL;DR territory.

As one final note, remember that any feedback you receive from me or anyone else is completely subjective and 100% opinion. You are free to take or reject any advice you receive, and at the end of the day the only authority on the quality of your character or work is you. Grammar and conventions are a different story, but I won't typically focus on all that.

[/schpiel]

Looking forward to WAR. Happy Writing, EHWF.

[Deleted]

I didn't want to stop I might pick it up again after the PPV

...but in the meantime, do me! Ooh me!

[Deleted]

Although it's not one of my better ones, I'd like to hear how bad my first one is (taking in mind the 1.5k limit for it of course).

[Deleted]

ehwfv2.proboards.com/thread/6947/plan-attack?page=1&scrollTo=12197

.. if you please. Posting here is fine by me btw.

[Deleted]

I'm too drunk not to say that you haven't reviewed my promo yet! I've been looking forward to this for like 2 days now.

[Deleted]

For future reference, I'm probably going to try and post feedback as close to a show's given deadline as possible, so don't expect it any earlier than deadline day. Also, keep in mind that these are my opinions and mine alone - if you disagree with something, disagree with it. It's your promo. Now... on to the festivities.

EDIT: Something that should also be taken into account, especially with regard to this first pair of feedbax, is that I critique and grade by different standards relative to where the match is on the card. An A or a B for a main event title match would probably break the scale further down the card. So... yeah. Keep that in mind.

Feedback for James Champ

Promo: Already Dead

Show: WAR '14

This promo... man, this promo. You just had to start me off with a doozy, didn't you? I've been fedding for about five-and-a-half years and participated to some degree in eight or nine different feds, which amounts to having read hundreds (if not thousands) of wrestling promos, and in all that time I don't think I've ever been quite as conflicted about a single promo as I am about this one.

I'm going to start by talking about your shoot, because HOLY SHIT THIS FUCKING SHOOT. Immaculately written. Merciless in its attack. Creative and multifaceted in its presentation. This, sir, is one of the best collections of shoot pieces I have ever seen, and it all blended damn-near perfectly with the bits of it, however few, that weren't solely dedicated to ripping your opponent a new one. Really, the promo as a whole is masterfully crafted; your imagery and descriptions are fantastic (the bits about lightning/thunder and suicide rates really stood out), and even reading back over it now, I find myself impressed by how many different ways you were able to spin a shoot throughout the promo. Very nicely done all-around, more so than I've seen in a long time.

But even so, something's missing. Or at least, that's the thought that kept occurring to me as I read. Something, or the lack of something, was making it ring hollow in places. My default reaction in instances like this is to think about Quartz and Champ, and ask "What is it about their characters that make these shoot pieces, and their feud with Silver Kazama as a whole, meaningful?" So I went back over this promo. I went back over some of your other promos. And having done that, I'm rather surprised to say that the answer to my question is... nothing.

Nothing in the way of background, besides Champ's past as an ECWF wrestler/champion. No interaction with other characters, outside of Quartz's surrealist false-reality episodes in Cape Neddick. We have only the barest of hints as to the actual relationship between the two of them. It absolutely kills me to say this, because I love this promo to death, but the problem isn't the promo - it's the characters that provide its focus. At this point - deadline day of a title match, where most characters would be well-established and perhaps even reaching their zenith - we have Roman Quartz, an (admittedly impressive) one-dimensionally evil man who thinks he's everyone's father and who, perhaps in accordance with that, will stick it in anything with a pulse; and James Champ, a foundationless fountain of trash-talk and death threats who was champion in another fed that one time. And I kid you not, those impressions are identical to the impressions I had after reading your very first promo here, almost three months ago.

That last paragraph makes it sound like I'm a douche who hated this promo. That's not the case. This promo, independent of anything else, is one of the best I've read in three years with the EHWF. You should be damn proud of it. But - and I cannot stress enough how much it KILLS me to say this - it is legitimately hurt by the lack of characterization on the part of Quartz and Champ. Heel or not, evil or not, there needs to be something underneath all the shoot and trash-talk that people can invest in, even if the investment is just that they want to see the character(s) get beaten. I'm sure others will disagree with me, but I didn't get that from this promo, or from Quartz and Champ in general. At this point they strike me more as caricatures of the evil patriarch and misguided zealot-son, rather than characters who embody those tropes. And as much as I think this is the type of promo that wins main-event matches, I cannot, in good faith, say that the prospect of these two (in their current state) sitting on top of the EHWF excites me very much.

Final Grade: B- (For a promo that is most definitely World Championship-caliber, from two characters that... well... aren't. Yet.)

Suggestions for Improvement: What were Quartz and Champ like before their respective starts of darkness? What does Quartz, in particular, look like in his day-to-day life (not Cape Neddick)? Something I've tried to deal with in my promos (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) is how significant figures in DGS' life react to him being an elitist heel jackass. I would love, absolutely LOVE, to see some of that from Quartz and Champ. Also, going back over this promo and some of your others (especially this one, though), there definitely seems to be a trend of Quartz getting more screentime than Champ. I don't know if that's deliberate on your part or not, and I suppose I don't know Rissi's or the other judge's thoughts on it, but it seems like something you might want to rectify in the future, given that Champ's the wrestler and Quartz is the manager.

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Feedback for David... Arnold...

Promo: No more games... no more battles... this... is SPARTA war...

Show: WAR... '14...

I liked this promo. 1.5k isn't a whole lot of room to work with, especially in your case as someone who's probably more accustomed to the EHWF's 7k limit, but I think you did a good job with the limited space the Junior Heavyweight division has allocated you.

The basic theme of this promo is almost as old as professional wrestling itself (or the modern idea of it, anyway) - Arnold's going to fight through an injury and dispel the notion that he's lost it, that he's out of step, et cetera, et cetera. You executed it well, though; the odds he'll be facing at WAR are well-articulated, the humiliation conga line he's gone through the past few weeks was made apparent both in his dialogue and the presentation of his injury, and he came across as convincingly sick of it and determined to change common perception of him by winning the match and retaining the title. Nicely done on all accounts.

The main thing that hampered this promo for me is, similar to Evan's, more of a meta-character issue that I see beginning to emerge - specifically, the fact that David Arnold seems to be stuck in a rut as far as his motivations go. You've been back - how many months now? Four, maybe five? - and it seems like the character's primary motivator is still to overcome these notions that he's lost his touch, that he isn't the man or competitor he was when he left the EHWF. That's fine for a comeback angle, and in my opinion always will be, but Arnold made his return in May. It's almost October now. I try very hard not to play psychologist with people's characters when I critique their writing, but in my honest opinion, continuing to cite what others think of him is keeping Arnold from truly undergoing any sort of development. Ever since you came back he's been this mild-mannered, relatively soft-spoken individual who seems borderline-obsessed with how other people perceive him, who simultaneously wants to remind people that he's just as dangerous as he used to be... and yet tries to distance himself from the dangerous persona that he used to be. Feel free to take this with as much salt as you wish, but things like that only remain an issue for as long as we keep making an issue of them. Whether Arnold can still hang or not will only be in question as long as you keep calling it into question.

This promo could've just as easily been solely about taking vengeance on Creed, putting HD in his place, and settling a purely competitive rivalry with Savannah - you could've made no mention of Arnold still having to prove himself - and nothing would've seemed out of place. In fact, Arnold would likely have come across even stronger without the implication that others were disappointed in him. Going forward, it might be worthwhile to consider having him walk the walk in stead of just talking the talk; he is, after all, David Arnold. The One and Only.

Final Grade: B (Because what's here is really good, but could be so much better.)

Suggestions for Improvement: Arnold wants to be taken just as seriously as he once was, but he also doesn't want to be the Nightmare. He has ever considered - have YOU ever considered - that maybe, just maybe, the two might go hand-in-hand? Also, dial back your use of ellipses (...). They're fine for trailing off dialogue every now and again, but there are places in this promo, and in others, where they're so frequent that if I were to read it out loud, I'd sound like Shatner. Not actual Shatner, either; more like Family Guy Shatner.

[Deleted]

ehwfv2.proboards.com/thread/6956/action-tiger

Might look at this one too if you get the chance.

[Deleted]

I was actually feeling that way about my first one and my character recently, so it's good to hear that someone else feels that way. That being said, since I went with a little bit of a different style for my second one, it'd be great if you could grade that one as well

[Deleted]

Feedback for Savannah

Promo(s): Plan of Attack and Action of the Tiger

Show: WAR '14

I'm going to start by saying that I literally could not be more opposed to gender division in e-wrestling. It makes no logical sense, neither from an in-universe standpoint (it's fictionalized fighting! why does there need to be fictional sexism along with it?) nor from a meta standpoint (it's competitive writing! statistically speaking, women have a greater natural affinity for it than men do, anyway!). Because of that, I can always dig it when a female character is not only in the mix with a bunch of guys, but acting like she belongs in the mix and owns their shit.

Savannah's presentation in these two promos fits that description to a tee - she comes across like a legit badass, especially in the second one. The way you broke down each of her opponents was perfect, and painted her in a light that makes her come across as a mature, professional, competitive-minded individual who belongs in a hard-hitting, full contact sport like... God, I can't believe I'm about to say this... professional wrestling. Your categorization of Creed, HD, and Arnold was also on-point, and made sense in addition to furthering Savannah's characterization by way of her reactions to each type of opponent. It's a rare thing, to be able to further define a character by way of a shoot like that, but you pulled it off flawlessly. Kudos.

The only real hang-ups I want to discuss can be found in your first promo. The first is a bit of a gray area, and opinions on it vary - for multiperson matches such as this one, I believe every opponent should be addressed in a promo. Your first shoot struck me as a bit lacking in that it only really addressed Connor Creed (albeit in a very compelling manner), with only passing mention made of Handsome Devil or David Arnold. Now, you definitely made up lost ground in Action, but for me, knowing that Savannah had thoughts on her other opponents that didn't get articulated hurt Plan a little bit. My other piece of advice has to deal with the second portion of Plan, and with bringing up a character's past exploits from other feds. My opinion on the matter is that it takes the reader out of the present; they don't know about the characters or events being referred to, which in turn makes the primary character more difficult to relate to and can alienate the reader. On a simpler and more grounded level, those events exist in a different continuity and have no bearing on this one whatsoever, and in turn results in a waste of time and space and word count, which is an even bigger deal in the JHC picture than elsewhere in the fed.

Oh, also, be sure to go back over your promos and check for spelling, capitalization, hanging code tags, etc. Really minor thing that I don't like discussing in feedback, and it wasn't an issue at all in Action, but it was pretty noticeable in Plan. Just an FYI. Other than that, fantastic outing this week. Definitely keeping an eye on Savannah in the future.

Final Grade (Plan): B- (The individual parts were all there, but a few minor hiccups kept them from coming together.)

Final Grade (Action): A- (The minus is for a small lack of CD, but your shoot covered for it really well. Quality work.)

Suggestions for Improvement: Think about character development in terms more directly relevant to Savannah as a part of the EHWF. Don't focus on one opponent in a multiman match to the exclusion of others. Proofread. If you can find a way to consistently make your shoots aid in Savannah's character development, do it, because you absolutely nailed that shit in Action.

David and Bill, expect yours sometime tomorrow afternoon.

[Deleted]

I know i haven't been able to do much in terms of long RPs lately but I wouldn't mind hearing what you thought of my WAR RP.

[Deleted]

Feedback for David Arnold

Promo: The art of war is one no one wants to master...

Show: WAR '14

I'm not a fan of the war rhetoric. Not just in this promo, but in all promos. It's been done to death in the context of professional wrestling, and something I always dread with this PPV comes around is the constant and unending influx of people waxing poetic about war, and going to war, and finding reasons to go to war, and the humanity and politics of war, and the strategy and tactics of war... because you just KNOW that people are gonna latch on to the concept, even if it gets invoked regularly enough as it is. To summarize, the concept of war in wrestling promos has been dead-horsed in every possible sense, and will continue to be dead-horsed until e-fedding - and indeed, perhaps wrestling as a whole - is no longer a thing.

Now, with all that said... when you talk about war in this promo, you do a pretty good job of it. The first two sections paint a pretty eerie, pretty grim picture, and cast war as the appropriately ignoble thing it was always and should always be seen as. My personal thoughts on the use of war as a thematic element aside, I thought these two sections (the first in particular) were pretty well-constructed. Arnold came across not only as knowledgeable, but confident as a result of that same knowledge.

Unfortunately, the final section - arguably, the most important - didn't hit me quite as strongly as the first two. You seemed to diverge from the promo's central theme. It seemed, at least in this final shoot, that you couldn't decide if you wanted to keep focusing on war or go off and talk about life and death (the graveyard setting threw me a little), or even Arnold's relationship with the fans. Arnold's presentation as a veteran of war in the squared circle was, in my opinion, hampered by the stereotypical babyface statements you made (I do this for the fans, for this woman by my side, yadda-yadda-yadda), and the emphasis you placed on the knowledge-based, tactical, cerebral side of war earlier in the promo was contrasted by Arnold's apparent focus on the motivational, passionate side of it in this final segment. What it really comes back to is this overly friendly, PR-centric character you've got Arnold playing, which I discussed in feedback for your first promo. If you can shed that skin, even if you still choose to remain a face, I really feel like everything will just click for you.

As it stands, this was a promising concept that got bogged down by a character lacking a concrete identity. Not stellar, but not bad, either. Keep it up.

Oh, also - the line "You are either with me... or you're a casualty... " was gold. More of that, please.

Final Grade: C+ (For a solid war-based premise that was executed well early on, but sort of fell apart near the end.)

Suggestions for Improvement: It's my understanding that you didn't leave on the best of terms, but I think you've been back long enough that that's all water under the bridge by now. Obviously, this suggestion doesn't extend beyond the limits of IC, but you can probably drop the nicey-nice aspects of Arnold's character if you want to. Flashes of brilliance here and in other work of yours makes me think that doing so would mean big things in the future.

[Deleted]

Feedback for Bill Ryder

Promo: North American Purge

Show: WAR '14

There's some good and some bad here. I'm going to start with the good - heel Bill Ryder is best Bill Ryder, full stop. The dark and brooding persona that you've adopted for him was in top form here, and some of the imagery you invoked was absolutely stunning. Falling into a valley, where you wait in the darkest corner? Coming to the dark continent of the EHWF with the light of civilization on your shoulder? That's some final boss-level writing. Ryder as a character has really handled the transition to this character well, and you've slipped into Quartz and Champ's style of merciless, smashmouth shooting with what seems like the greatest of ease. Major props in that regard - the heel thing's really clicking on a whole bunch of different levels.

Looking at individual segments of this promo, the ones that really stood out to me were the final shoot from Quartz's perspective and the scene that... featured Lisa Caliber. Those two were definite highlights of the work for me, in large part because you've appropriated the Quartz character magnificently. Amidst the flood of war rhetoric that readers were subjected to this week, you molded a relevant facet of current events - the Ebola virus - into a fantastic piece of shoot about disease that perfectly encapsulates what Quartz, Champ, and Ryder represent in the grander scheme of the EHWF. The Caliber segment worked as well, but in a different way: you showed how Ryder fits into the big picture that is the Quartz Family. You showed us the depths to which Roman can sink and forced us to watch as Bill became complicit in his evil, and I loved every second of it.

One thing I would try to be careful of in the future, though, is to be wary of the context in which you're portraying said evil. Imagine this promo had taken place in the real world, and that professional wrestling was as real and non-staged as it is portrayed here. What do you think would happen to Bill if he straight-up admitted, on camera, to committing murder and acting as an accessory to rape (which he did)? This is one area where you might take a page out of Evan's playbook - he still shows us the terrible acts Quartz and Champ have committed, but he does so through the filter of Cape Neddick, a surrealist setting that is subtly implied in multiple places to not be real. We're still given the heinous crimes, still forced to watch them unfold, but without having to ask questions like "Where is the real-world retribution for this?" or feeling like the shark has been jumped. This, and a few technical hiccups here and there (be wary of run-on sentences), are really the only things that stymied the promo in certain places, and honestly, you should be really, really proud of what you accomplished this week from a storytelling perspective.

Final Grade: B+ (Further refinement of the heel gimmick and its execution will turn this into an A pretty quick.)

Suggestions for Improvement: Think about the real-world implications of Bill's heel actions. There's something to be said for subtlety - not everything needs to be as heavy-handed as rape or murder. Be watchful of things like run-on sentences and verb tenses. Re-reading helps with this, re-reading out loud helps even more.

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Now, for the bad, which I'm going to assess independently of the rest of the promo. Get ready. If it sounds like I don't have an ounce of tolerance for the aspect of this promo I'm about to discuss, it's because I don't.

"TQ Smooth will show up three minutes before the deadline with seven thousand words of pointless material which will be followed by some sort of lame excuse that he always seems to have. We all know you have been monitoring every action I have made in the last week, and right before people might actually start to believe that you won't show, you will pop up out of nowhere and enlighten us all with your sad material."

I don't care if I'm not Rissi. I don't care if I don't run the fed. I don't care if I have the authority to tell you this or not, I'm doing it anyway: Do not do this again. Not ever. It's a cheap shot that targets a handler rather than a character. I don't care if you were just trying to be heelish or have a legit beef with the guy or whatever, because there's no context that exists in which this sort of thing is anything other than an OOC dick move. I don't want you to think that I'm explicitly picking on you here, though - others have done it in the past (T.Q. included), and it pissed me off then just as much as it does now. This is more directed at anyone and everyone who thinks this sort of thing is okay: it's not. There is such a thing as e-fed etiquette, and this sort of thing is one of the biggest breaches of that etiquette there are.

That was me on my soapbox. This is me off my soapbox - IC/OOC blur notwithstanding, this was a fantastic promo. I hope you can capture this sort of thing again for our match.